As the music industry continues to evolve, independent musicians found a true champion in Derek Sivers, founder of CD Baby. Since it's inception in 1997, this online record store has paid over $80 million directly to independent musicians all over the world, with $6-$10 from each sale going to the artist, compared to $1-$2 from standard record deals with major labels.
To learn more, check out www.cdbaby.com

Instead of standard interview, Derek and I met up in the wonderful world of instant messaging. Below is our exchange:

Derek: Hello.
Me: Well hello Mr. Sivers.
Derek: I've never done an IM interview before but it seems to make sense. Both interactive and no need to transcribe after.
Me: I haven't done it either ... we'll see how it goes.
I've been reading a lot about CD Baby in preparation for this discussion.  Congratulations on its staggering success.
Derek: From my point of view, CD Baby is something I made 10 years ago that I've been half-removed from since 2002. I think I just put some good DNA in motion and it's taken on a life of its own since then. I can't take full credit. (Any more than a parent can take full credit for his child.)
Me: Any great success ultimately becomes a group effort but you were the instigator and your work has changed the marketplace for independent artists. ... I read on your Wiki page that you told your first employee ""This thing might get huge one day. I mean, we might have 100 artists here."... How does it feel to see what it has become?
Derek: Yeah. That's a good feeling. It's amazing to me how much things have changed in the 10 years since I started it. 10 years ago, there was not a single company anywhere online that would sell your music unless you had a record deal or distribution deal. It's great knowing I had something to do with how much more the artists are in control now.
Me: It seems that the whole entertainment industry is changing due to the internet. You no longer need to be in the "major cities" in order to find success. In fact, the Big Companies are trying to figure out how to do what the little guys are doing.
Derek: An example of how things change : When I decided that every artist was going to get paid every Monday night, everyone thought I was crazy because the standard was to pay quarterly, every 3 months. Now that weekly has become the standard, it's actually heartwarming to watch a new generation of artists complain about having to wait until Monday to get paid.
Me: Is it true that Rachael Sage (www.rachaelsage.com) was one of the first artists to join the CD Baby family?
Derek: Technically the very first! Even before me. My own record wasn't even on CD Baby until later. At first it was something I was only doing for some friends. She was #1.
Me: That isn't surprising. She's a brilliant artist and her own kind of sequined pioneer. I think she's amazing. I'm interviewing her this week as well.
Derek: Cool. Please tell her I said hi. She's been a real pioneer all along. Always had her shit together.
Me: I know. One of my absolute favorite artists. I actually sang with her a couple weeks ago. my first full concert was opening for her.
Derek: Cool!
Me: I'll be joining the CD Baby family soon, hopefully.
Derek: About time!
Me: CD Baby is expanding into web hosting and independent film. What other ventures can you see it growing into? Any new developments you can discuss?
Derek: I'm not secretive. I can discuss anything you want. 20 years ago, it used to cost a fortune to create an album. Then technology improved to make it cheaper so now just anyone can do it.
10 years ago, it used to cost a fortune to distribute your music, because the only way to do it was to compromise your integrity and sign your life away to a major label. Now because of companies like CD Baby, just anyone can do it. So now that both creation and distribution are cheap and easy, what's left is promotion.
Me: Very true. "Now that anyone can make music, how do you get it recognized?"
Derek: Exactly. That's the new challenge I'd love to tackle.
Me: It's overwhelming how much talent there is in the world, once the "talent machines" are taken out of the picture.
Derek: I have some plans on what that might be, but luckily my friend Ariel Hyatt from Ariel Publicity has beat me to it in many ways. She totally overhauled her company and is now doing internet promotion that is quite amazing. arielpublicity.com
My dream is to make the $99 promo campaign. A company that could help just anyone get some damn good customized promotion for $99. We'd make it clear that we wouldn't be doing anything that you couldn't do for yourself, but we'd have in-house experts that could do it very efficiently and effectively, doing in 5 hours what might take you 5 weeks.
It'd have to be completely customized for every client, though. A beginner blues artist would get a completely different promo campaign than an established techno artist.
And it'd have to be completely transparent, meaning : you can log in to your account and see every email sent and received on your behalf, and actually listen to recordings of every call placed or received on your behalf. A real time-log of exactly what the company has done for you.
Me: Fantastic idea. ... You are a true entrepreneur, making real what other people seem to only talk about. Where did that rebel and trailblazing streak come from? How did you come to be so passionate about helping others make their dreams come true when you could have used your drive for self-promotion?
Derek: I've discovered it's what I love most in the world : learning, then applying what I've learned to create something that helps musicians. I've learned a lot in the past few years about systematizing a business so that it's efficient and reliable, able to be run by anyone. If you're interested in this stuff, read a great book called E-Myth Revisited (Michael Gerber).
Me: Ah yes, I'm very familiar with that book already. Other great books to check out are The Long Tail (Chris Anderson) and A Whole New Mind (Daniel Pink).
Derek: Cool! Thanks.
(I've included more information on these books at the end of this interview)
Me: What is it about music as an art form that most inspires you?
Derek: There's a great quote from a jazz musician that said, "If you can learn music, you can learn anything."
The process of learning music, writing music, recording music, performing music, then marketing my music have each been life-changing experiences for me.
So really, though I love music, I love musicians more. I love helping people with that process. For me, the passion is about the process, not the end result of the music itself. That's why I love helping "just anyone", not passing judgment about who's great and who's not.
Me: On your personal website (www.sivers.org), you offer up the music you've written to be used and recorded and sold, seemingly with no expectation of royalties. Why did you decide to do that?
Derek: It's old and I don't need the money. (laughs). When CD Baby took over my life, I stopped writing and recording. Something in my head switched and I just felt like helping other artists instead of writing more music myself. So that music is like looking at home movies from 10-20 years ago. I'm proud of that kid, but quite distanced from it.
Me: How do you think the music industry will change over the next 10 years? It seems that more and more the artists are becoming responsible for themselves instead of "just being the artist" with a posse to do all the work.
Derek: Exactly. I have a pretty unpopular opinion about this. I was recently at some pompous invite-only music industry event where bigwigs were brought together to discuss the future of the industry. Everyone was talking about how this "$4 billion dollar industry" is going to continue, but the unspoken assumption was that it has to stay at that level or grow. I stood up and said, "What if the entire music industry becomes like the poetry industry? Instead of 1000 people making $1 million, what if the future is a million people making $1000? What if we just need to admit that nobody's going to get rich doing this, and if that bothers you, then you should leave?" Of course that was widely booed and shooed as crazy-talk. But I think that kind of shake-out could be really healthy for the music business. Nobody's in the "poetry business" to get rich.
Me: Maybe if you're making music because it's the only thing your soul will let you do instead of making music because it supports your cocaine habit, that will be a good thing.
Derek: Exactly. Similar story:
I was at a conference speaking on a panel next to Neal Portnow, the head of NARAS, when the subject of piracy came up. He said, "If we don't stop piracy soon, artists will have no motivation to create music anymore!" I said, "I think we'd be better off without those artists that wouldn't create music without financial gain."
Me: Very true. What we have to acknowledge is that changes are happening and there is no stopping it. You can shut down things like Napster but don't assume you've won because in 10 minutes there's going to be the exact same thing hosted somewhere else.
Derek: Ugh. Napster. Yeah. The ultimate centralized P2P distribution system could have so easily been monetized. That was the industry's greatest mistake.
I realize this sounds hypocritical since I'm so driven to help artists make money, but I think that's the tao of business : to succeed, you have to be doing something for love not money, then the money will come.
Me: Maybe what you're doing is helping generate buzz about the artists so people show up for their live shows. live performance is where the indys make their money.
Derek: Well, when I watch CD Baby pay out over $2 million per month directly to the musicians, it's hard to buy into the philosophy that artists don't make money selling music.
Me: Yeah, the artists do but the big businesses don't ... that's the real threat. If you make the major labels irrelevant--or even a hindrance--that changes everything.
Derek: Some artists are better suited to a live-concert career. Some are better suited to selling recorded music. Some make a great living selling music to film and TV. For most, I think the hybrid is where it's at. Finding multiple channels of income puts you on steadier ground, the same way that a table with four legs is steadier than a table with one.
Me: Absolutely true. What needs to happen is the acceptance that the rules and the playing field have changed and will continue changing.
Derek: I met an artist in Hong Kong recently who said that he's been meeting with Warner Music a lot lately, and that they've been surprisingly grassroots entrepreneurial, as if they've already reached rock-bottom and realized their old methods don't work, and are adapting to the changing times instead of becoming irrelevant. That would be interesting!
Me: Yes, the way that the Majors respond to the realization that they're no longer in control will be very interesting to watch. ... What are you working on these days outside of CD Baby?
Derek: I've been a non-stop workaholic since I was 18. In college they called me "the robot" because nobody ever saw me eat, sleep, or even relax. So now I'm 38 and the past few months I've actually been exhaling a bit, reading, learning, relaxing, traveling. I guess this is my current learning experience : learning how to relax a bit.
Me: Excellent. I'd say you deserve a bit of quiet downtime. I look forward to seeing what you'll do next. Thanks for your time today. I'll talk to you soon.
Derek: Ok good. Over & out! Take care.

www.cdbaby.com

Books mentioned in our discussion.

The E-Myth Revisted by Michael E. Gerber walks you through the steps in the life of a business -- from entrepreneurial infancy, through adolescent growing pains, to the mature entrepreneurial perspective -- and works to dispel the myths about starting and growing a new business.
Visit www.e-myth.com or Amazon to learn more.

A Whole New Mind by Daniel Pink is a guide to surviving in the fast-paced, upside-down world we live in today, proposing that the future of global business belongs to the right-brainers.
Visit www.danielpink.com or Amazon to learn more.

The Long Tail by Chris Anderson argues that the future belongs to those that serve the millions of untapped niche markets as well as they serve the masses. Read his manifesto to find out how unlimited shelf space and personalization can revolutionize business.
Vist www.thelongtail.com or Amazon to learn more.

When I made the decision to do a series of interviews of people that have inspired me creatively and otherwise, there were some very obvious first choices.  I'm thrilled to say that in the coming weeks you will be introduced to all of them as they have all said yes to my request.

First up is Eric Himan, an extraordinary singer-songwriter I discovered by chance a few years ago. I don't know how exactly I ended up on his page on CD Baby but I immediately fell in love with his music and promptly ordered everything. As fate would have it, I was at WineFest here in Des Moines a couple weeks later and there he was, singing from the stage. I met him briefly that night and found his grace and charm to equal the passion and power of his music.

I interviewed him last summer when I was doing a small publication to support the independent musicians making a stop at Ritual Cafe, my favorite coffee shop here in Des Moines. Since then, I've seen him every time he's made Des Moines a stop on his tour and it always feels like I'm reconnecting with a friend.

With his latest album, Resonate, Eric explores a wide range of emotions and stories so I used the song list and the few descriptors included with each of them in the CD case as the inspiration for a series of questions instead of a standard Q&A format. For a more formal introduction to the full definition of all that is Eric Himan, please check out his website and his MySpace page.

WISH YOU WOULD
A song about looking back on someone you lost in love or in life.
When I saw you perform this song at Ritual Cafe last year, you hadn't yet decided on a title. How do your songs usually come to you? A melody? A single lyric? A title in search of a song? And how many of your songs are autobiographical and how many are storytelling?
My songs come to me in all different ways. Sometimes, I have a just a melody line and a single lyric (usually these two are hand in hand). Other times, I will find a few chords that fit together well and then step away from it for a while. Then, one day (this part sounds magical,ha), in my mind the lyrics and melody will find the chords. I would say 95% of my songs are autobiographical, whether a story of my life or my thought process. The rest are songs that are challenges in songwriting for me like Clyde, He’s Using You, and Little Boy Blue.

OPEN THE DOOR
A song for my sister, Janet, who needed her big brother to stand up for her.
The small description of this song is very intriguing, especially when someone like me starts trying to dissect the lyrics and figure out the truth of the matter. How much more can you say about the story that inspired this song?
This song was inspired by conversations with my sister about our father. He got married a few years back and really took to his wife’s family. I think my sister felt a bit estranged and when I saw this, I decided to write this song as a wake-up call to him and let him know that she was feeling this way. This song successfully started a great dialogue between them.

LITTLE BOY BLUE
Written about a transgendered boy I met years ago who taught me how to be myself without apologies.
Can you talk a bit more about the boy who you met, how he challenged your thinking and the lasting impression he has left on your life?
“Little Boy Blue” was written about a great transgendered boy I met a few years back while doing a tour of LGBT youth centers. I met many great youth on this trip, but no one made me work harder for their friendship than the boy that inspired this song. By the end of the day, we were good friends. I learned not to force friendships and take people for who they are. He was very straight forward with his emotions and I respected that. I remember that he was in between homes at the time and I wonder sometimes what happened to him. Hope he is ok.

Be sure to also check out the music video for Little Boy Blue.

UNTIL THE ROAD UNWINDS
A song I wrote for a movie that it didn’t end up in. However, it is a great song about the importance of family, not necessarily biological, but the ones you call family.
Though it can definitely apply to gay people who find themselves shut out by their families, the concept of our "chosen families" is universal and we all seem to magically find the right "tribe" that makes us feel less alone. This song seems particularly written for a person that helped raise you though not a blood relative. Can you explain a bit about the story of the film that inspired it? And what was that writing experience like?
This song was written specifically for the movie, For The Bible Tells Me So. They asked me to write something for the film but in the end, they went with a popular song from an established artist. I wrote it after seeing the film and the connection we either have or crave with our own family. Whether it is being gay or other things that might hit a family hard, we all have that special person in our lives (my Grandma Grace is mine) that sticks by us no matter what and gets the whole story. This song is dedicated to anyone who has this person in their life regardless of if they are blood related.

FOR ME
Our culture is so obsessed with celebrities and their private lives more now than ever. After awhile you get caught up hearing about their lives even when you’re not actively seeking it. Then there are millions of reality shows made to make new celebrities. This world is a scary place; someone seeking stardom is eliminated from a reality show every hour.
While there are songs on this album that are almost aggressively political--Protestor's Song being the most obvious--to me it felt like this song sprang forth from a great deal of anger and frustration at the state of celebrity. As an artist trying to "break through", how does it feel to see how people are treated who are living the life that in, some ways, you aspire to reach?
I struggle sometimes with the kind of life I see for myself. Though money and fame can bring security (which I crave sometimes when feeling especially vulnerable in business), I always wanted a career in music to express myself and my opinions. On a basic level, I am doing that right now and very satisfied. Seeing celebrities and how everyday people have more to say about famous people’s lives than their own, made me think that we all tend to take some else’s word as truth. Like hearing some else’s opinion or the media’s opinion of someone we don’t know saves us from having to get to know them and understand them ourselves (ie. Britney Spears, Lindsey Lohan). We begin to like who they like, or hate who they hate and this extends to peer pressure as well. In the second verse, I describe seeing a kid abused by a father and how we can be trained to just walk by and think that we do not understand and can’t help the situation. We need to give everyone a chance regardless of what rumors/gossip is heard.

PROTESTER'S SONG
After all the Pride events I have done with protesters attending with hate, I decided to own my feelings instead of trying to suppress them about the issues that surround the LGBT community in relation to family values, the military, and that word that is often thrown at us: hell.
As I said previously, this is the most obviously political song on the album and, I believe, the first time you've written a song so in your face with it's rage. It's my personal favorite on the album and I wanted to stand up and cheer when I first heard you sing it in a show. How do you think the decision to be an openly gay artist has affected your professional journey, both good and bad?
It is hard to answer this question, because I don’t know what it is like to NOT be an openly gay artist. I was out from the get-go and this was because I didn’t want to package myself up as something I was not. I wanted to speak about my life and being honest. I wrote this song and accepted it the way it came out. I didn’t edit it and chose not to be afraid of offending those who didn’t agree with my values, something that does make me nervous being a people pleaser as I can be. I have received so much praise for this song and I am so glad that it gets the reaction that it does with gay and straight people.

IN DEMAND
This song is about money, of course, and how it takes money to make money. It also takes believing in yourself to make others believe in you too.
It seems that many people these days are more concerned with their financial status than their emotional or spiritual status. In some ways, this song seems to mock that as a way to try to get the focus back on what really matters. Where did the inspiration for this song come from?
This song was written for anyone who has ever said to me: “when you get big and famous” or “when you become a big star and sell out”. The idea that success will change me and my values based on increased finances always offends me a bit. It shows a lack of trust in me. When an artist who sells their art to make a living is looked down upon for getting more successful, I always wonder the backlash of those who have followed their careers for a long period of time. They fear this loss of who the artist once was. I don’t think money has ever changed me, whether I had a lot of money or no money (been at both ends), and this song was made to kind of poke fun at that thought process; The idea that the whether you are rich or poor, the electric company only cares if you pay the bill. The way gas prices are going, the line “they raise the prices and they never put them back” seems very suitable these days.

ONLY
I finally wrote my first upbeat happy love song…it’s taken a while.
I've talked to a lot of singer-songwriters who have said they can only write when their life is a mess, that it's easier to write about hurt, anger and loneliness than it is to write about joy and happiness. The note you include about this song makes me think perhaps this a bit true for you as well. Why do you think this is?
I used to think this way too; that art comes from struggle. But, these past few years when I looked at my songwriting and had things in my life hit that great balance and I was happy, I thought there is so much left to explore. Just because I was happy, didn’t mean there was nothing to write about. My life isn’t over once I reach happiness. It is continuous and there are plenty of things to write about the journey.

HE'S USING YOU
Wrote this as I was listening to an acquaintance talk about money over love. I started to feel bad for anyone who truly falls in love with someone who is only after material things. This is my “Christina” for Patty Griffin fans.
Is the person who inspired this song aware that they were the inspiration and, if so, what was the reaction?
Also, you mention Patty Griffin whom I know you greatly admire. If you had the chance to interview her but found out suddenly that you could ask only one question, what would it be?
I wrote this song for a friend who made an off-handed remark that seemed like a last resort. “If I don’t find Mr. Right, I’ll just marry some rich guy”. I got this person in my mind, this little rich guy, and how unfair a relationship with my friend would be. How this fictional person deserved more than that. I began to think about relationships in my past where I felt like I was being used. I put those two things together. I did tell him about the song and he actually liked it. Maybe he will think next time he thinks of a rich guy as a last resort or a viable option for that matter. You know I LOVE Patty Griffin. If I could sit down and ask her one question, it would be "Who or what influenced you to starting writing your own music?" I find the answers to this question are very unique.

WE ARE THE SAME
This was a piece of a song that I had written awhile back and decided it just needed to be a short, sweet song about treating others as you wish to be treated. First somewhat spiritual song I’ve written.
What I like about this song is the way it just simply states a very clear message that cuts to the ultimate truth of the world we live in. I love the line "the world is too small to be scared of it" because we have a tendency to view the world as this enormous place but it really isn't all that big and we are more connected to each other than we sometimes want to admit. At what point did it click for you that the simplicity of this song was really all it needed to be?
I remember writing this song with just the verses that are in it now. I wrote it all in one shot and put it aside. I kept coming back to it trying to make it this elaborate song. It never felt right and when it came time to record it, I ended up just singing and playing what I had. When I heard it back, I realized that it didn’t need anything else. I said everything I wanted to say and proud of it.

THERE'S GOTTA BE SOMETHING
A song I released as a solo acoustic song that accompanied my first music video. Decided to spice it up a bit with the band and make it new again.
It's seems that there is a whole story in this song, just in the one line " I’m begging you now to reflect, the best of me I’ve not seen yet". Can you tell me more about the inspiration for this song and how it came to be?
This song came out of a HUGE soul searching month two years ago, towards the end of my touring with Everywhere All At Once. I had burned myself out on the road and didn’t know if my heart was in music anymore. I began to stress on it leaving me just looking around any corner for a sign or an answer. I sat down with my friend, Cas, and played her the few verses I had of this song and though talking out my feelings, this song came to life. By the end of our talk, this song was completed. The line in the song you reference was from being so vulnerable and open to a sign. When the song was finished, I knew that music was my outlet, my communication, and my life.

(ENCORE)
Thanks for the taking the time to answer these questions, Eric. To steal a question from Inside the Actor's Studio, if there is a God, what would you like him to say to you when you show up at the pearly gates?
Thank you for being you.

www.erichiman.com

Be sure look for Eric as he seems to be on endlessly on tour. And please go in search of his music. You can thank me later.

 Shadley