When singer-songwriter Martha Berner saw my interview with artist Paul Moschell, she told me I should to check out the work of Joe Sorrren. The minute I clicked on his website, I immediately sent off a note to Martha, thanking her for the introduction.

The work of Joe Sorren tells quiet stories of wonder with melancholic grace. I found myself studying each of his paintings, wondering about the dreamlike characters that filled the snapshots of the canvas. At turns, they made me smile and filled my eyes with tears. It's my favorite kind of storytelling--the kind that takes me by surprise with its complicated emotions--and I was incredibly grateful when Joe agreed to answer a few simple questions.

In reading more about you, I keep coming across the word "lowbrow" to describe your paintings which, frankly, struck me as an offensive description for any kind of art. What is your definition of this word and how do you feel about it being used to describe your work?
My take on it is, it's best to focus on the work and not the categories. They can be a distraction.

I read a fantastic interview with you from several years ago and I wanted to ask about something you mentioned. You compared the feeling that you strive for in your work to night-swimming. Can you say a bit more about that?
There is a quiet force that i feel when I swim at night, it is sort of like an excitement of stillness. Maybe it is all the potential energy, I am not sure. But it is similar to the feeling of painting. Does that explain it? Kinda? 

What made you decide to include the Painting in Progress on your website? It seems a risky move to invite "the world" in to your creative process and inviting critiques, criticisms and questions while you're trying to figure it out for yourself.
When I paint I feel like I have no secrets. It is just a strand of discovery and wrong turns. This way of working takes me longer, but I feel more engaged with the piece than if I were to plan it all out beforehand. More like being an archaeologist on a tightrope or something.

Is there any one of the characters from your work that you would most like to meet as a real person? Whose story do you think might be most fascinating to hear?
Hmm... that is a cool question. Hmmmm. I guess, in a way, I feel like I have met the people in my work.

It's been said in several interviews that music is a reoccurring theme in your work. What are you listening to these days? And how do you think music most influences your style?
Lately I have been listening to loads of Django Reinhardt.  The thing about music, at least the thing I most gravitate to, is the rhythm. I see it mirrored all over everything. In nature and roads, in painting, in randomness. It's like people-watching in an airport or something, the non-scripted flow, like a slinky of conversations all ebbing and crashing. Music is like that too, it's just caged, and I enjoy the steady cagedness of it. Does that make sense?

Another word that comes up a lot in reference to your work is "childlike." Which, to me, stings a bit with a condescending curl of the lip. How do you interpret this description?
Ah, fuck em.

From what I've read, you're a curious soul with an unquenchable thirst for new things, ideas, understandings. What random subject are you currently obsessing about?
How to grill vegetables.

What's the best question you've ever been asked?
"What the hell is that?" 

And whose answer to that question would you most like to hear?
How about Filippo Brunelleschi? That would have been fun to witness. Have you read, "Lives of the Artists," by Giorgio Vasari? It is about artists (obviously). The thing I love about it is that it was written in the 16th century, and is colored by 16th century sensibilities. It helps to put things in perspective. 

www.joesorren.com

Finding Tiffanie DeBartolo's GOD-SHAPED HOLE will probably always be one of my favorite literary finds. That may a bit grandiose to say but it's how I honestly feel about the stories and characters that came to life in this funny, lyrical, tragic, romantic, lyrical, honest, heart-breaking and magical book. What seems to be a simple "girl meets boy" story left me feeling both devastated and hungry to fully embrace life in all its insanity, humor and grace.

Tiffanie DeBartolo was one of a few people whose work inspired my desire to do this interview series so I am incredibly grateful that she took time out from her insanely busy schedule to answer a few questions.

Can you tell me about a bit about your upbringing and background?

Sure. I was born and raised in a small town in Ohio called Youngstown. It was the kind of place Bruce Springsteen would write a song about. Wait, he did write a song about it. Youngstown was a big steel town at one point, but it fell into a decline in the 70's, so it was kind of a depressed place to grow up. I remember it being very gray, and there was little to do as an adolescent beyond local high school football games or hanging out at the mall, neither of which appealed to me, so I spent the majority of my time in my room reading books, listening to music, and watching MTV. Luckily my dad traveled a lot for work, and very often he would take the whole family with hmi--my mom, my two sisters, and me--so I got to visit a lot of different places, which definitely shaped who I became, and fueled all my restless dreams. 

How did the did the original idea of God-Shaped Hole come to you and how long did it take you to get from that original inspiration to finished book?

The idea came to me after Jeff Buckley died. GRACE was one of the most influential CDs I'd ever encountered, I was inconsolable over Jeff's death, and I needed a place to put all that grief. For me, writing has always been my outlet for pain. It's also where I explore the existential questions of life and death. The book isn't about Jeff, obviously, as I never knew him. It's more like a literary response to his music. A fictional story inspired by the spirit I found in his songs. I began writing the book with that intention, anyway, and I finished it nine months later, almost to the day.


At the beginning of GOD-SHAPED HOLE Jacob and Beatrice buy each other a record that they think reflect their perceptions of each other. What album do you think would best describe you?

TD: Wow, that's a really great question. It's a hard one, too. There are three or four that come to mind, but if I must narrow it down to one, I have to go with U2's ACHTUNG BABY, reason being that, to me, ACHTUNG BABY is a record about struggling with demons, about the frailty of humanity, about love and all its contradictions, and the internal and external conflicts that cause love to thrive, or that tear it apart. It's about how despairing love can be, and also about how love is the only thing that can rescue us. It's beauty and truth; it's a divine, gorgeous mess. It's life being lived moment by moment. It's everything I believe in. And the idea that we are all complicated creatures fighting every day to be the best we can be, to hold on to love, to hold on to dignity, to be authentic, and to not allow ourselves to drown in our confusion, these are the themes and issues I wrestle with in my life, and, as a result, in my writing. I can't think of a better record that sums up who I am.

It's been said that most first time novelist pull a lot of the story from their real life. How true is that with God-Shaped Hole? And how much are you willing to elaborate on the truths within the fiction?

Well, I think that on some level, all authors put pieces of themselves and much of their experiences into their work, at least all the authors that I love. Every human being on the planet sees the world with a unique viewpoint, and I think any author would be doing a disservice to the reader if they didn't share that viewpoint. That's what makes an author's voice so powerful. It's perspective. And I would be fooling myself if I said I didn't have a pretty specific perspective, or that there wasn't very significant parts of me in my characters, but one of the real tricks in writing is having all of one's emotional truths and quirks on hand, and then letting go of them, at least consciously, when you write. In other words, I dont sit down and say, “Okay, Eliza is going to have these traits of mine, and Beatrice is going to be like me in the following ways.” It just happens. I may have already said this, but for me, writing is very often an exercise in exploration, an attempt to answer a question or to solve a problem, and naturally, if one is thinking about these things and obsessing over them on a daily basis, they are going to be evident in the work.

I know you also wrote and directed Dream for an Insomniac. What inspired you to pursue a career as a novelist instead of continuing on the Hollywood path?

Well, in my opinion, Hollywood is more than just a place; it's a way of life. And it was a life I really didn't want to lead. I value my privacy, and the solitude of writing. Making films necessitates a lot of schmoozing and game playing and socializing that I just didn't have in me. That said, I really did love the experience of being on the set, and watching my words and my vision come to life. If I could still do that, and not have to deal with any “suits”, I would. But, alas ....

I seems that GOD-SHAPED HOLE would make such a beautiful and lyrical film but it's my understanding that you won't let that happen. Why is that?

That's not entirely true. I actually think both of my books would make great films, I'm just really picky about who could step into the shoes of certain characters, mainly Jacob and Paul. If I could be involved to the degree that I got say-so in the casting, as well as the script, I'm all for it. If anyone reading this knows Ryan Gosling, tell him I've got the perfect role for him. =)
Beatrice is driving away from Los Angeles at the end of GOD-SHAPED HOLE. Where do you imagine she is today and what is she doing?

TD: Well, that question is actually answered in (Tiffanie's second novel) HOW TO KILL A ROCK STAR. She makes a cameo very near the end of the book. That's all I'm going to say.

What is your process as a writer? Are you disciplined and focused or random and manic?

I'm disciplined and focused to an almost annoying degree. I've actually been striving in the last couple years to loosen the reins a bit. Last summer I realized that I'd been writing virtually nonstop for over a decade, and I took most of the last year off from writing to recharge. In the meantime I did charity work for an organization I work with called Road Recovery, and I started an indie record label, which has been amazingly fun and rewarding, a real learning experience, but a lot more work than I ever imagined. I've also been traveling like crazy. I'm just coming back to writing now, and it feels good after being away for so long.

As for my process when I'm in writing mode, I have a pretty particular schedule--my dogs wake me up early, usually about 6:30, I have coffee, then I go for a run or hike or a bike ride. It's imperative to my well-being that I do some sort of physical activity every morning. Then I'm usually at my desk by nine, and I write until four, or, if it's a really good day, until my eyes get blurry and I can't see anymore.

Of the fictitious characters you've created, who would you most like to meet as a real person?

Ha, that's another great question. Is it a cop-out to say that on some level I feel like I've met them all already, through the real-life characters that have inspired them? Not acceptable? Okay, then I think I'd have to go with Jacob Grace, only because he is the most fictional, in the sense that he wasn't based on anyone I'd ever met, and he was a real inspiration to me. Discovering Jacob taught me a lot about life and how to live it, and I'd be honored to have him in my extraordinary group of friends.

What about your life as a novelist has been the most surprising?

That I get to do it, and that people are actually moved and entertained by my work. I know what it means to be inspired and touched and changed by a book or a song, and to think that I can impart a little of that in someone else is a remarkable gift. Furthermore, if you had asked me at age fourteen what my dream job was, I would have described my current occupation. It's so cool to get to do what you love to do, especially something so creatively satisfying. Not that it isn't a huge challenge at times. It's not a life that allows one to shy away from feelings or experiences, and I don't mean that in a hedonistic way, that's not what I'm about at all. I mean that if you don't exist with a certain amount of awareness, if you aren't participating and paying attention, you end up gypping yourself and your audience of authenticity and knowledge in your work. I recently read an article in Psychology Today that said one of the ways a person can learn to be more authentic in their life is by reading novels. I feel the same way about writing them. You can't fake it, and knowing that keeps me on my toes. I can't waste a lot of time or live in vain without feeling like a loser, but I wouldn't want it any other way.

Are you working on a new book? If so, how much can you tell me about it?

I am. I began this book a few years ago, finished an embarrassingly awful rough draft last summer, then walked away from it for a while. I'm completely rewriting it now, to the point that it will probably be almost unrecognizable to the two people who had the bad luck of reading the original manuscript, but I'm not sure of the hows or the whys of the story yet, so I can't really say much more, except that on some level it's about forgiveness, making amends, and learning how to let go.

What's the last book you read that you loved so much that you simply didn't want it to end?

SHANTARAM by Gregory David Roberts. I also really liked THEN WE CAME TO THE END by Joshua Ferris. I started that on a plane going from London to San Francisco and finished it before we landed. Oh, and THE MOTEL LIFE by Willie Vlautin. Excellent in its simplicity. I strive to write like that.

In the two books you've written, music has played a very important role. What is the importance of music in your own life? And why do you think it is such a universally powerful form of expression?

Music is everything to me, my biggest inspiration, my religion, my salvation. It’s like food. I need it to survive. And I think its power lies in its ability to stir things up, to reach down deep and instigate a reaction. It makes you feel something, and in such an accessible medium. Plus, music allows for complete commiseration. I maintain that there is a song out there to speak to every emotion, every experience, every hope, dream, and fear one can have. And it's impossible to feel completely alone in the world when you put on a great song and know that the person who wrote it, or the person singing it, or playing it, has felt what you're feeling.

What guilty pleasure music do you love that would most surprise people?

My favorite radio station is The Heart on XM radio. It's all sappy cheesy songs from the 70’s and 80’s, and I am kind of proud and kind of embarrassed to admit that I know the words to almost everything they play. =)

You've won a vacation to anywhere in the world. Where would you go, what would you do and what books would you take along?

God, I love these kinds of hypothetical questions. I think my answer would change week to week, depending on my mood, but right now I'm leaning toward Southeast Asia: Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, Thailand, Myanmar. I love to experience new cultures, new cuisines, new people, and this is a part of the world I have yet to visit. What would I do there? I'm a dork when I travel. I would visit all the temples, churches, museums, little villages, and tourist attractions. Whatever the country had to offer, I would want to see it.

Crap. Can I have a second hypothetical vacation? I also really really really want to go to the Maldives. But this would be a surfing and swiming and have sex on the beach vacation, as opposed to a cultural awakening. =)

And as for books, I'd bring the next three in my “to read” pile, which are, in order of appearance, THE LIME TWIG by John Hawkes, THE GINGER MAN by J.P. Donleavy, and DON QUIXOTE by Cervantes.  

Can you tell me a little bit about the record label you co-own?

I'd love to. It's called Bright Antenna, named after a line in the Rush song “Spirit of the Radio”. It's a song about maintaining integrity in music, which is what the label aims to do. We joke that if rock 'n roll were a pool, it would need a good strong does of chlorine, and Bright Antenna wants to be that chlorine. I am one of four partners, the Chief Executive Super Goddess, if you will. =)

As far as the music we want to put out, if I had to generalize I'd say we lean toward alternative indie rock, but we're certainly open to anything of quality. Our first official release was an EP by a young, extremely talented band from Liverpool, England called The Wombats. They're actually quite popular across the pond, and are just starting to break America now. In the meantime, we're in negotiations with a couple other bands, and have a lot of cool things in the works.

You've worked in the three major storytelling industries--publishing, film, and music--how are they interconnected and what are the pleasures and struggles in each?

I guess because I worked so separately in all three, I don't see them as interconnected. And being that I haven't worked in the film industry for over a decade, that one doesn't seem to apply anymore. Right now the struggle for me is that I essentially have two full-time jobs: I'm a writer, and I'm the CESG of the label, and if I ever want to publish another novel I have to learn how to balance that a little better. The good news is that it's now a tax write-off for me to go to shows, and to wander around to see bands. Not to mention that I'm constantly being sent music, by my partners and by artists and bands, and I often spend a good chunk of my day on MySpace listening to it. I can't really complain about that.

Here, at the end of the interview, what would you like to say to the writer who was staring at a blank piece of paper, desperate to the tell the story that can't seem to find words and fearful that perhaps all the naysayers are correct, so instead this struggling artist is here, reading your story while trying to find the courage to dive back into the unknown?

I would say that, believe it or not, I was staring at that same blank page this morning. And four hours later I had about five hundred words staring back at me. You have to start somewhere. And always write your story pretending that no one is ever going to read it. You can't be a good writer and a self-conscious one. If I thought about who was going to read my words before I published them I'd never put out anything.

I would also like to say that writing is as much about discipline as it is about talent. You can have all the talent in the world, but if you don't sit your ass down and grind it out, you'll never get anywhere. That's my advice in life as well as in writing. Get off your fucking ass and do something. Try to make the world a brighter place. You can be as lazy and useless as you want when you're dead.

www.myspace.com/tiffaniedebartolo

As the music industry continues to evolve, independent musicians found a true champion in Derek Sivers, founder of CD Baby. Since it's inception in 1997, this online record store has paid over $80 million directly to independent musicians all over the world, with $6-$10 from each sale going to the artist, compared to $1-$2 from standard record deals with major labels.
To learn more, check out www.cdbaby.com

Instead of standard interview, Derek and I met up in the wonderful world of instant messaging. Below is our exchange:

Derek: Hello.
Me: Well hello Mr. Sivers.
Derek: I've never done an IM interview before but it seems to make sense. Both interactive and no need to transcribe after.
Me: I haven't done it either ... we'll see how it goes.
I've been reading a lot about CD Baby in preparation for this discussion.  Congratulations on its staggering success.
Derek: From my point of view, CD Baby is something I made 10 years ago that I've been half-removed from since 2002. I think I just put some good DNA in motion and it's taken on a life of its own since then. I can't take full credit. (Any more than a parent can take full credit for his child.)
Me: Any great success ultimately becomes a group effort but you were the instigator and your work has changed the marketplace for independent artists. ... I read on your Wiki page that you told your first employee ""This thing might get huge one day. I mean, we might have 100 artists here."... How does it feel to see what it has become?
Derek: Yeah. That's a good feeling. It's amazing to me how much things have changed in the 10 years since I started it. 10 years ago, there was not a single company anywhere online that would sell your music unless you had a record deal or distribution deal. It's great knowing I had something to do with how much more the artists are in control now.
Me: It seems that the whole entertainment industry is changing due to the internet. You no longer need to be in the "major cities" in order to find success. In fact, the Big Companies are trying to figure out how to do what the little guys are doing.
Derek: An example of how things change : When I decided that every artist was going to get paid every Monday night, everyone thought I was crazy because the standard was to pay quarterly, every 3 months. Now that weekly has become the standard, it's actually heartwarming to watch a new generation of artists complain about having to wait until Monday to get paid.
Me: Is it true that Rachael Sage (www.rachaelsage.com) was one of the first artists to join the CD Baby family?
Derek: Technically the very first! Even before me. My own record wasn't even on CD Baby until later. At first it was something I was only doing for some friends. She was #1.
Me: That isn't surprising. She's a brilliant artist and her own kind of sequined pioneer. I think she's amazing. I'm interviewing her this week as well.
Derek: Cool. Please tell her I said hi. She's been a real pioneer all along. Always had her shit together.
Me: I know. One of my absolute favorite artists. I actually sang with her a couple weeks ago. my first full concert was opening for her.
Derek: Cool!
Me: I'll be joining the CD Baby family soon, hopefully.
Derek: About time!
Me: CD Baby is expanding into web hosting and independent film. What other ventures can you see it growing into? Any new developments you can discuss?
Derek: I'm not secretive. I can discuss anything you want. 20 years ago, it used to cost a fortune to create an album. Then technology improved to make it cheaper so now just anyone can do it.
10 years ago, it used to cost a fortune to distribute your music, because the only way to do it was to compromise your integrity and sign your life away to a major label. Now because of companies like CD Baby, just anyone can do it. So now that both creation and distribution are cheap and easy, what's left is promotion.
Me: Very true. "Now that anyone can make music, how do you get it recognized?"
Derek: Exactly. That's the new challenge I'd love to tackle.
Me: It's overwhelming how much talent there is in the world, once the "talent machines" are taken out of the picture.
Derek: I have some plans on what that might be, but luckily my friend Ariel Hyatt from Ariel Publicity has beat me to it in many ways. She totally overhauled her company and is now doing internet promotion that is quite amazing. arielpublicity.com
My dream is to make the $99 promo campaign. A company that could help just anyone get some damn good customized promotion for $99. We'd make it clear that we wouldn't be doing anything that you couldn't do for yourself, but we'd have in-house experts that could do it very efficiently and effectively, doing in 5 hours what might take you 5 weeks.
It'd have to be completely customized for every client, though. A beginner blues artist would get a completely different promo campaign than an established techno artist.
And it'd have to be completely transparent, meaning : you can log in to your account and see every email sent and received on your behalf, and actually listen to recordings of every call placed or received on your behalf. A real time-log of exactly what the company has done for you.
Me: Fantastic idea. ... You are a true entrepreneur, making real what other people seem to only talk about. Where did that rebel and trailblazing streak come from? How did you come to be so passionate about helping others make their dreams come true when you could have used your drive for self-promotion?
Derek: I've discovered it's what I love most in the world : learning, then applying what I've learned to create something that helps musicians. I've learned a lot in the past few years about systematizing a business so that it's efficient and reliable, able to be run by anyone. If you're interested in this stuff, read a great book called E-Myth Revisited (Michael Gerber).
Me: Ah yes, I'm very familiar with that book already. Other great books to check out are The Long Tail (Chris Anderson) and A Whole New Mind (Daniel Pink).
Derek: Cool! Thanks.
(I've included more information on these books at the end of this interview)
Me: What is it about music as an art form that most inspires you?
Derek: There's a great quote from a jazz musician that said, "If you can learn music, you can learn anything."
The process of learning music, writing music, recording music, performing music, then marketing my music have each been life-changing experiences for me.
So really, though I love music, I love musicians more. I love helping people with that process. For me, the passion is about the process, not the end result of the music itself. That's why I love helping "just anyone", not passing judgment about who's great and who's not.
Me: On your personal website (www.sivers.org), you offer up the music you've written to be used and recorded and sold, seemingly with no expectation of royalties. Why did you decide to do that?
Derek: It's old and I don't need the money. (laughs). When CD Baby took over my life, I stopped writing and recording. Something in my head switched and I just felt like helping other artists instead of writing more music myself. So that music is like looking at home movies from 10-20 years ago. I'm proud of that kid, but quite distanced from it.
Me: How do you think the music industry will change over the next 10 years? It seems that more and more the artists are becoming responsible for themselves instead of "just being the artist" with a posse to do all the work.
Derek: Exactly. I have a pretty unpopular opinion about this. I was recently at some pompous invite-only music industry event where bigwigs were brought together to discuss the future of the industry. Everyone was talking about how this "$4 billion dollar industry" is going to continue, but the unspoken assumption was that it has to stay at that level or grow. I stood up and said, "What if the entire music industry becomes like the poetry industry? Instead of 1000 people making $1 million, what if the future is a million people making $1000? What if we just need to admit that nobody's going to get rich doing this, and if that bothers you, then you should leave?" Of course that was widely booed and shooed as crazy-talk. But I think that kind of shake-out could be really healthy for the music business. Nobody's in the "poetry business" to get rich.
Me: Maybe if you're making music because it's the only thing your soul will let you do instead of making music because it supports your cocaine habit, that will be a good thing.
Derek: Exactly. Similar story:
I was at a conference speaking on a panel next to Neal Portnow, the head of NARAS, when the subject of piracy came up. He said, "If we don't stop piracy soon, artists will have no motivation to create music anymore!" I said, "I think we'd be better off without those artists that wouldn't create music without financial gain."
Me: Very true. What we have to acknowledge is that changes are happening and there is no stopping it. You can shut down things like Napster but don't assume you've won because in 10 minutes there's going to be the exact same thing hosted somewhere else.
Derek: Ugh. Napster. Yeah. The ultimate centralized P2P distribution system could have so easily been monetized. That was the industry's greatest mistake.
I realize this sounds hypocritical since I'm so driven to help artists make money, but I think that's the tao of business : to succeed, you have to be doing something for love not money, then the money will come.
Me: Maybe what you're doing is helping generate buzz about the artists so people show up for their live shows. live performance is where the indys make their money.
Derek: Well, when I watch CD Baby pay out over $2 million per month directly to the musicians, it's hard to buy into the philosophy that artists don't make money selling music.
Me: Yeah, the artists do but the big businesses don't ... that's the real threat. If you make the major labels irrelevant--or even a hindrance--that changes everything.
Derek: Some artists are better suited to a live-concert career. Some are better suited to selling recorded music. Some make a great living selling music to film and TV. For most, I think the hybrid is where it's at. Finding multiple channels of income puts you on steadier ground, the same way that a table with four legs is steadier than a table with one.
Me: Absolutely true. What needs to happen is the acceptance that the rules and the playing field have changed and will continue changing.
Derek: I met an artist in Hong Kong recently who said that he's been meeting with Warner Music a lot lately, and that they've been surprisingly grassroots entrepreneurial, as if they've already reached rock-bottom and realized their old methods don't work, and are adapting to the changing times instead of becoming irrelevant. That would be interesting!
Me: Yes, the way that the Majors respond to the realization that they're no longer in control will be very interesting to watch. ... What are you working on these days outside of CD Baby?
Derek: I've been a non-stop workaholic since I was 18. In college they called me "the robot" because nobody ever saw me eat, sleep, or even relax. So now I'm 38 and the past few months I've actually been exhaling a bit, reading, learning, relaxing, traveling. I guess this is my current learning experience : learning how to relax a bit.
Me: Excellent. I'd say you deserve a bit of quiet downtime. I look forward to seeing what you'll do next. Thanks for your time today. I'll talk to you soon.
Derek: Ok good. Over & out! Take care.

www.cdbaby.com

Books mentioned in our discussion.

The E-Myth Revisted by Michael E. Gerber walks you through the steps in the life of a business -- from entrepreneurial infancy, through adolescent growing pains, to the mature entrepreneurial perspective -- and works to dispel the myths about starting and growing a new business.
Visit www.e-myth.com or Amazon to learn more.

A Whole New Mind by Daniel Pink is a guide to surviving in the fast-paced, upside-down world we live in today, proposing that the future of global business belongs to the right-brainers.
Visit www.danielpink.com or Amazon to learn more.

The Long Tail by Chris Anderson argues that the future belongs to those that serve the millions of untapped niche markets as well as they serve the masses. Read his manifesto to find out how unlimited shelf space and personalization can revolutionize business.
Vist www.thelongtail.com or Amazon to learn more.

 Kim and I both love to be in the kitchen and cooked a lot while living together in New York. While making daydream lists of where the Once Upon A City collection could go, we started talking about creating colorful cakes decorated with the artwork and the stories. This lead to some research on what other people were doing when cake was used as the palette and the paints were food coloring. Through this, I discovered the cookbook The Whimsical Bakehouse: Fun-to-Make Cakes That Taste as Good as They Look on Amazon.com a couple years ago and was totally blown away. What these women were doing with cake seemed like a Dr. Seuss daydream.

Curious about their background, inspiration and experiences, I sent them a baker's dozen questions.

WHAT HAVE BEEN THE CHALLENGES AND THE ASSETS OF BEING A MOTHER/DAUGHTER TEAM?
Kaye: The best part of working with Liv is just watching her develop as a human being. I am in awe of her. The challenge: not taking it personally when she criticizes me.
Liv: Well, my mom is inspirational. She is the hardest worker I know. I aspire to be as strong as she is – and I don’t mean just lifting heavy tiered cakes (although she is known to flex her toned biceps on occasion), but emotionally. That said, she is still my mom and I can regress a bit with her: complain openly, talk back, etc…something that wouldn’t happen with another boss.

KAYE, WHAT INSPIRED YOU TO OPEN YOUR FIRST BAKERY IN 1988?
I love baking and had always baked for Liv, family, and friends. After waitressing, catering, and sewing to make a living I finally decided I wanted to own and operate my own business. My then partner, Jill, and I opened the Runcible Spoon in 1988.

LIV, HOW DID YOU DISCOVER THE AMAZING CONNECTION THAT COULD BE MADE BETWEEN YOUR TRAINING AND TALENT AS A PAINTER AND HOW IT COULD BE USED ON A CAKE CANVAS? AND AT WHAT POINT DID IT TRANSITION FROM BEING A HOBBY TO BEING A CAREER?
Before graduating college if someone asked me what I wanted to do with my life I would say, “Other than painting I’m not sure what I want to do, but I do know that I don’t want to work in the food business.” This was spoken from experience - I grew up helping my mom and knew how labor intensive the food industry was. I ate my words. I started working for my mom in 1994 (just “temporarily”) but when I moved from cashier to cake decorator something clicked. It was creative, rewarding, and I actually liked the hands-on labor involved in the day to day bakery world.

In college I had an amazing painting professor, Kay Walkingstick, whose approach to teaching was physical, gestural, and a lot about letting go and just seeing what happens. This forgiving and exploratory way of working was freeing and it definitely allowed me to see how much could be learned from experimentation and accidents. Without this lesson I would not have discovered all of the decorating techniques I use today. Many of my decorations are created on a whim.

WHAT HAS BEEN THE MOST DELIGHTFUL SURPRISE ABOUT OWNING YOUR OWN BAKERY?
Kaye: Being the boss. But the relationships that we have developed with our employees have been a real gift. Some are like family.

Liv: Actually my mom is the boss. Although it wasn’t much of a surprise, she has always been supportive of everything I do: from designing new cakes to taking a step back from full-time work to teach and raise my son.

WHAT CAKE PROJECT PROVED TO BE THE MOST CHALLENGING?
Kaye: My first wedding cake that I had to bake and decorate by myself.
Liv: Every year when the major holidays approach we experience the lull before the storm. We dread the hundreds and hundreds of stock cakes that we will have to produce, the fight for storage space, and the long hours. And thanks (not), to my fertile imagination too many of the cakes are overly decorative.
Basically instead of relaxing on the holidays you work like a machine.

WHAT HAS BEEN THE MOST BIZARRE REQUEST FOR A CAKE DESIGN? AND ARE THERE ACTUALLY REQUESTS THAT MAKE YOU SAY "I'M SORRY. WE WON'T DO THAT?"
Kaye: We say “no” to erotic cakes…
Liv: …I might scare the customers with my realism.
Once a customer asked for a pile of s**t on their cake. Talk about unappetizing. I’m not sure who or how or why we said yes to it, but we did, and it was gross. One of our decorators embedded kernels of buttercream corn to really put it over the top. But I wouldn’t do it again.

CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT A BAKING EXPERIENCE THAT WENT SO HYSTERICALLY WRONG THAT IT STILL CONJURES LAUGHTER TO THINK ABOUT TODAY?
Kaye: Before I knew any better I used to measure out my ingredients cup by cup- imagine counting out 90 cups of flour and losing count after 80. It still makes me laugh.
Liv: Most of the things that have gone wrong initially made me want to cry, but in retrospect it’s all ok. Like delivering my cousin’s wedding cake- half way through the trip the cake slid off its board and hit the back of the car seat. Luckily we were able to push it back into place and make the mashed side the back.

IS THERE A SECRET YOU'VE LEARNED THAT YOU BELIEVE EVERY NEW BAKER SHOULD KNOW?
Kaye: Be prepared to work long and hard.
Liv: People new to, or outside of the food business, sometimes think it would be so fun to decorate cakes, but really being a cake decorator is a lot like any other job – it has its ups and downs. I love the creative aspects of my job, but the day-to-day work is more like an assembly line. Sometimes you can find a comfortable rhythm – sometimes it is plain old stressful.

WHAT COOKING UTENSIL WOULD HAVE YOU CURSING THE BAKERY GODS IF YOU SUDDENLY REALIZED IT HAD GONE MISSING?
Kaye: The 80-quart mixer. We’d be out of business if we didn’t have one (or more).
Liv: My metal cake scraper. Basically it is a sawed off bench scraper that I use to make my final coat of buttercream super smooth.

HOW HAS THE BAKERY INDUSTRY CHANGED SINCE THINGS LIKE THE FOOD NETWORK HAVE DARED PEOPLE TO TAKE NEW RISKS IN THE KITCHEN?
Kaye: For the most part our customers aren’t very adventurous - our best seller is still our fudge layer. But our other best seller is our “mini-birthday –cake” (the tipsy colorful cake on the cover of our first book) so they will try new items if they catch their eye.
Since I am constantly trying new recipes our more daring customers always have something interesting to choose from.
Liv: Our customers, thanks to all of the wacky Food Network Challenges, think we can do anything with cake. I can do a lot with cake, but not anything. We are limited because we don’t use fondant (mom says it tastes bad) or complex inedible structural supports, nevertheless, my decorations have gotten wilder and more colorful over the years simply because people responded to them and would buy them.

AT THE RIVIERA BAKEHOUSE, WHAT ARE THE SEASONAL FAVORITES, BOTH FOR YOURSELF AND FOR YOUR CUSTOMERS?
In general customers can’t get enough of our cupcakes – some weeks we bake 16 dozen a day. And then when December rolls the oven is always full of cookies- we probably sell about 200 pounds of cookies a day. Each holiday and special event has a special menu and these include seasonal favorites like Easter bread, football cakes for Superbowl, 3-d ladybugs and beach pails for the 4th, pies for Thanksgiving, and Yule Logs for Christmas.
SPRING
Kaye: blueberry crumb cake
Liv: Mmm, sounds good to me too.
SUMMER
Kaye: summer bounty pie
Liv: real strawberry shortcake (biscuit) and strawberry rhubarb pie
FALL
Kaye: apple pie
Liv: pumpkin pie, or maybe pecan pie, or maybe sweet potato pecan pie
WINTER
Kaye: Stollen and Christmas cookies
Liv: Gingerbread

WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO MAKING A DESSERT FOR YOURSELF, DO YOU HAVE A FAVORITE?
Kaye: When I am baking for myself - just chocolate chip cookies. The last time I made them I baked chocolate chip and m&m cookies with my grandson.
Liv: Maybe because I work with cake I don’t crave cake. When I want dessert I make Flan or I pick up a fruit pie from the bakery.

HAVE YOU EVER HAD A GOOD OLD FASHION FOOD FIGHT?
Kaye: No. Even as a kid we didn’t fight with food (just for it). It was too important- we never thought we’d get enough. That’s what happens when you have 10 brothers and sisters.
Liv: I’ve never had a food fight either -but I don’t think being an only child is an excuse.

Kaye and Liv Hansen run the Riviera Bakehouse in Ardsley, NY. Learn more about the bakery here.

And for more about The Whimsical Bakehouse cookbooks and recipes, click here.